tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7324546173362923571.post553933818086034014..comments2023-10-25T08:56:45.750-07:00Comments on liberté, égalité, trivialité: Why I don't understand religious moderates and progressive ChristiansPatrickhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00816959400474038457noreply@blogger.comBlogger7125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7324546173362923571.post-751693306016858992009-09-15T08:51:21.843-07:002009-09-15T08:51:21.843-07:00I agree entirely. Yeah, I think religious moderati...I agree entirely. Yeah, I think religious moderation is a good thing. And I wholly disagree with Harris' contention. I do agree that it does, perhaps, help perpetuate the stigma against the nonreligious, but Gene Robinson, for instance, is NOT empowering fundamentalists.<br /><br />I hope this didn't come across as me saying that religious moderation ought not exist, or that I was calling for them to abandon their faith... I just, personally, do not understand how one could live with that much cognitive dissonance.Patrickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00816959400474038457noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7324546173362923571.post-37543881604745199152009-09-15T08:40:54.803-07:002009-09-15T08:40:54.803-07:00I see it as a good thing. Obviously no one wants t...I see it as a good thing. Obviously no one wants to see slavery or stoning come back into vogue. And those are clearly in the Bible. It isn't difficult for us modern people to see how transparently wrong those practices are. As atheists, we are freed up to dismiss everything in the Bible that does not line up with our own perception of morality. For progressive Christians, in order for their religion to make any sense at all, they have to assume that the Bible is right about <i>something</i>.<br /><br />So as our society evolves and our collective consciousness grows, Christians are left with fewer and fewer cherries to pick. The reason we don't see this changing as quickly as we'd like is because the older generation is still alive. In twenty or thirty years I imagine that we'll look back on the early part of the 21st century and be shocked at how homosexuals and women were treated, just as we look back at the 50s and 60s (and every century before that) with horror at how whites treated just about every other ethnic group. The old racists die out and their kids take their place. We move up one notch.<br /><br />Unlike Sam Harris, I don't really see religious moderates as a huge threat. Sure, they empower fundamentalists, but they are the moving force that is prodding religion, inch by inch, toward complete irrelevance.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08866772657939595834noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7324546173362923571.post-56271533185387552162009-09-14T19:37:43.720-07:002009-09-14T19:37:43.720-07:00Been thinking about this more and I think it's...Been thinking about this more and I think it's also that a lot of people who claim to believe in the Bible haven't actually read the thing cover to cover, and might not fully realize what kind of craziness is contained therein.Alex Ghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03027180079898973299noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7324546173362923571.post-33829543254575608122009-09-14T16:52:04.891-07:002009-09-14T16:52:04.891-07:00My apparently unoriginal guesses would be:
1) Lo...My apparently unoriginal guesses would be: <br /><br />1) Loss of community<br />2) Social stigma<br />3) Never thought about it before<br />4) General apathy (i.e., thought about it, shrugged, moved on doing the same old thing because why change)<br /><br />My main beef is their lack of speaking up against the fundies. We're on the same side of that one, but we're doing most of the talking. It would be nice to have more public support.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7324546173362923571.post-48945080732229598792009-09-14T15:39:22.068-07:002009-09-14T15:39:22.068-07:00I'm actually in pretty full agreement with you...I'm actually in pretty full agreement with you on this, especially the cherry-picking part. The whole "homosexuality and religion" thing is especially dear to my heart (being raised Mormon when you're gay is such fun!). I had a hard time with the idea that if the Bible tells you that something you know to be natural and not a big deal is in fact evil and sinful, why would you go out of your way to bend the book to what you believe instead of just ditching the crazy thing altogether?<br /><br />That last sentence was grammatically awry. Apologies.Alex Ghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03027180079898973299noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7324546173362923571.post-1619340795751551052009-09-14T15:16:43.672-07:002009-09-14T15:16:43.672-07:00I think you're right on on those points. I als...I think you're right on on those points. I also think that the stigma against nonbelief has a lot to do with it. We nontheists are, after all, the country's most distrusted minority. Leaving the fold can be painful, resulting in the loss of friends and family. The moment you label yourself an atheist, you immediately are the object of whispers and distrust.<br /><br />I also think the threat of loss of the religious community has a lot to with it. If you have a close-knit congregation and enjoy going to church every week, losing that may not be worth it just for the sake of admiting to yourself that you don't believe...<br /><br />I don't know, though. I emerged from adolescence a full-fledged atheist/agnostic, so it's extraordinarily difficult to put myself in the mind of a religious moderate.Patrickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00816959400474038457noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7324546173362923571.post-33450265466718434882009-09-14T15:08:02.790-07:002009-09-14T15:08:02.790-07:00I'm right there with you. I'm glad for re...I'm right there with you. I'm glad for religious moderates and liberals, but I'm similarly baffled. I think it might also have to do with the fact that I went from being a orthodox religious conservative Mormon to an atheist socialist within the span of less than a year. I never have experienced moderate religion, because the same reasons moderates give for rejecting fundamentalism, I also use to reject moderate and liberal religiosity. <br /><br />I understand the mindset which keeps a fundamentalist suspicious of science and facts and things like that, but I don't get how someone who believes in facts and reality can still believe in god(s) or the supernatural. <br /><br />My intuition is that many moderate religionists have never had to confront the inherent illogic of being both reality-based and religious. They're perhaps unaware of the history of religion, their particular religion, and how thoroughly religious texts have been debunked, and how scientifically unlikely gods are.Craighttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09374110841642375968noreply@blogger.com